Old Seasons and the 3-4 Defense

Re: Old Seasons and the 3-4 Defense

feeds@kickapps.com (VeryCurious) — Fri, 03 Jul 2009 09:50:13 PST

HSeizant - I saw many of the Bills '64 and '65 games and don't recall them using a 3-4 defense. I was pretty young then and could easily have missed it. Here are 4 youtube clips of the Bills 1964 season:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HeQYK59rMmY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SB-Ohq_IPJw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D8yHQ_lcLJA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wv1r_9PDPQs

At 3:19 of the first clip it looks like the Bills are in a 3-4 defense. It's an obvious passing situation. The Bills had a pretty big lead against KC and went into a "prevent" set-up. If they used a 3-4 then, it was only in very obvious passing...

Re: Old Seasons and the 3-4 Defense

feeds@kickapps.com (HSienzant) — Fri, 03 Jul 2009 08:44:56 PST

I would like to see some documentation for the claim that the Bills used the 3-4 back in the mid-1960's.

I know that Chiefs used it at times in Super Bowl I against the Packers, after the 1966 season, and reference is also made in that original broadcast to the Chiefs using it during the season.

It may well be that the Bills did in fact use it before the Chiefs. But I'd like to see something *from the time* that references that, not a 40-year later claim that, "Yeah, we used it first." Anyone can say that. I also note the article does not mention the Chiefs using it at all, although that's the earliest claim I've been able to substantiate (but it's not like it's my life work to determine who used it first, either).

Re: Old Seasons and the 3-4 Defense

feeds@kickapps.com (VeryCurious) — Wed, 01 Jul 2009 01:45:14 PST

Here's an artilce on the history of the 3-4 defense that might be interesting:

http://nationalsportsreview.com/sports/us/NFL/2009/06/26/a-breakdown-of-the-history-of-the-3-4-defense/

Re: Old Seasons and the 3-4 Defense

feeds@kickapps.com (HSienzant) — Sun, 21 Jun 2009 08:16:33 PST

Actually, if you listen to Super Bowl I (available here: http://actionpcsports.yuku.com/topic/5292) - and I only learned this recently myself - the Chiefs are credited with using a 3-4 in that game at times. For example, on the opening Packer drive, after the first sack of Bart Starr, the announcer says "We note now that the Chiefs have put in an extra linebacker. They will have a three man rush on Starr and four linebackers. They invariably put in an extra linebacker on passing situations..." [I had to write fast because there is no rewind, but that is close to an exact quote.]

So I have to correct my own post above and give credit where credit is due - Hank Stram and the Chiefs used the 3-4 before the Dolphins. Both used it not as a base defense, but in passing situations.

Re: Old Seasons and the 3-4 Defense

feeds@kickapps.com (TampaFlyingTigers) — Mon, 15 Jun 2009 11:48:23 PST

The Dolphins actually were the first to use a 3-4 alignment (circa 1971). It wasn't their base defense however. It was invented to utilize their players skill set better and was used off and on. The name used was the "53" defense, named after Bob Matheson (jersey #53) who would go in as the 4th LB'er behind a 3 man line that utilized a nose tackle. The true 3-4 alignment evolved in the late 70's.

Re: Old Seasons and the 3-4 Defense

feeds@kickapps.com (HSienzant) — Sun, 14 Jun 2009 10:58:51 PST

The NFL Network has a weekly hourly series entitled "Top Ten .. ". Top Ten Linebacking Corps, Top Ten Passing Tandems, etc.

In the one entitled Top 10 Innovations, #7 on the countdown to number one is the 3-4 defense. Within the section on the 3-4, Bobby Bell is quoted as saying "It's a 3-4 but we called it a Triple Stack."

Personally, I don't recall the Chiefs ever being credited with inventing, or using, the 3-4. My recollection of the first time I ever saw it was with the Dolphins in the early 1970's (Bob Matheson, the 53 defense, as mentioned by others here). The "Triple Stack" of the Chiefs that I do recall was where the three linebackers were eached stacked directly behind a defensive lineman, instead of filling a gap between two defensive linemen (like the typlcal MLB stands behind and between the two DT's). In the Chiefs defense, the three linebackers stacked behind three of the four DL, making it more...

Re: Old Seasons and the 3-4 Defense

feeds@kickapps.com (griggie1969) — Thu, 04 Jun 2009 18:13:48 PST

like verycurious stated tha dolphins used an extra linebacker and thus started the 53 which was created by their defensive cooridinator Bill Arnsparger

Re: Old Seasons and the 3-4 Defense

feeds@kickapps.com (Chris F) — Thu, 04 Jun 2009 16:24:58 PST

VC and Griggie - Thanks. The reason I started this thread was because I've seen the 3-4 used as the base defense for a few teams from some old seasons in Action football. I was just wondering if you guys knew about this and made changes accordingly, and if there were some other teams I should make changes to.

I think I misunderstood the 5-3 the Dolphins used as a variation of a 3-4 defense.

Re: Old Seasons and the 3-4 Defense

feeds@kickapps.com (griggie1969) — Wed, 03 Jun 2009 23:18:34 PST

oh yeah i watched Super Bowl 7 highlights and john Facendawas talking bout tha 53 defense Miami ran

Re: Old Seasons and the 3-4 Defense

feeds@kickapps.com (VeryCurious) — Wed, 03 Jun 2009 22:14:11 PST

griggie - the "53" stirred up some brain cells. I remember that defense now. Matheson would come in as the 4th linebacker in passing situations. So I guess they did play a situational 3-4, though it wasn't their base defense. I seem to recall it was the "53" because that was Matheson's number. Right? Thanks for shaking some brain cells free

Re: Old Seasons and the 3-4 Defense

feeds@kickapps.com (VeryCurious) — Wed, 03 Jun 2009 22:08:12 PST

Chris - I don't recall any AFL team from the 60's playing a 3-4 defense. The 3-4 defense didn't come into vogue until the late 70's. I say with reasonable certainty that the 1966 Chiefs played a base 4-3. It's difficult to look up up player data and be sure because teams in that era only carried 35 players. Rosters list players at several positions. A 300 pound lineman was an oddity. Lineman then weighed what linebackers weigh today. Point is ... it is hard to tell where players played from personal data either.

Mays and Buchanon anchored the '66 Chiefs DL. The three linebackers were Holub, Headrick and Bell. They along with Stratton, Jacobs and Tracy in Buffalo were the two best linebacking trios in the '66 AFL season. The KC defense was good, but not spectacular. The Chiefs' strength was offense. Stram used innovations like the moving pocket to beat AFL teams down. They ran a very solid and innovative offense. I...

Re: Old Seasons and the 3-4 Defense

feeds@kickapps.com (griggie1969) — Wed, 03 Jun 2009 21:52:53 PST

Actually they ran the 53 defense named after there lineback Bob Mathison, and it worked to perfection.

Old Seasons and the 3-4 Defense

feeds@kickapps.com (Chris F) — Wed, 03 Jun 2009 20:48:30 PST

It is my understanding that the Miami Dolphins were the first (or one of the very first) teams to use the 3-4 defense. This was a defense they used quite a bit during their '72 season. However, I'm noticing a few older teams, especially the '66 Chiefs that also have the 3-4 listed as their "basic" defense. Is this accurate? I'm not sure it is, since they were 4-3 pretty much at that time.

Does anyone have any input on this?